2008-10-14

Vote No on Prop 8

This past May, the California Supreme Court overturned existing legislation, legalizing same-sex marriage for its residents, making it only the second state in the country to do so. Obviously, a controversial decision like this one does not come without contention, so opponents of homosexual rights wrote Proposition 8, an amendment to the California Constitution "to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry." On Election Day, California voters will have the option to pass this amendment by majority rule.

As a proponent of personal choices and freedoms, I have no interest in denying someone the right to marry. Truthfully, at least presently, I'm not too wild about the concept of marriage, but if it's going to be legal for certain people to get married, then it should be legal for everyone to get married.

For a funny opinion on the matter, I defer to Wanda Sykes:


I assumed that California, arguably the liberalist state in the nation, felt the same way as Wanda and me on this issue and haven't paid attention to Prop 8. Last week, however, I read that recent polls show that Prop 8 is likely to pass, thereby re-outlawing same-sex marriage.

Currently, the boost in Prop 8's popularity, at least in large part, can be traced back to the LDS church. The church's leaders are urging their congregation to donate money and take action, with each member committing at least four hours a week, to make sure Prop 8 passes. This goes for Mormons in every single state, not just California, meaning there is money flowing in from all over the country, as well as thousands of out-of-state individuals phone banking to California residents, giving their deceptive facts to help sway the tide. Nearly half of all money collected in favor of Prop 8 has been generated by members of the LDS church.

The most outlandish (and therefore amusing) ad out is this one, which clearly relies on fear-mongering:

Mommy, I can marry a princess! Yup, she's totally gay. There's no helping her now. Advocates for Prop 8 rely on a few main talking points, none of which are particular sound:

Prop 8 supporters worry that students will be taught about same sex marriage in classrooms.

As is California state law, parents have the option to have their kids skip out of any and all health and family lessons, so parents can still delay their kids from learning about gay people for that additional period of time before they are introduced to the real world. Besides, as a former California public school teacher, I can assure you that kids don't learn much of anything these days anyway, so there's no reason to panic.

Prop 8 is not about intolerance. Most Prop 8 supporters actually love gay people. Besides, in California, same sex couples are already afforded many of the same rights as married people.

If Prop 8 proponents love gay people as much as they claim to, why don't they marry them? Sarcasm aside, the nuance is critical here. The fact is, domestic partnerships are not the same thing. This country has tried "separate but equal" in the past, and it was a joke of a policy. Our constitution protects equal rights for everyone; legalizing exceptions to this is unconstitutional. It is ridiculous to pretend you care about a group of people, while perpetuating discrimination toward this same group.

I support Prop 8 not out of hate, but because it is important to maintain the current definition of marriage.

If you've ever checked out a dictionary or tracked etymology, you'll find that words evolve (though, evidently, churches do not.) Words take on new meanings as society uses them differently. You can't just pass a law insisting that people only use the word marriage to refer to unions of people of the opposite sex, that's not how language works. In fact, the first two online dictionaries I checked are already defining marriage regardless of the gender of both people in the union: Merriam-Webster and Encarta Dictionary. If your church, or just you on a personal level, decide to maintain your own way of defining marriage, that so be it, that's your right as a human and language user. However, that doesn't grant you the right to make it a law.

Prop 8 promotes positive family values.

A lot has been made of the fact that marriage exists for the purpose of procreation. Firstly, the world is facing a population crisis: we do not need an institution existing solely for the purpose of reproducing. Secondly, we allow heterosexual infertile, post-menopausal, and impotent people to marry without question, should we reconsider this, too?

Besides, current laws do not prevent homosexual people from adopting/conceiving children. If having parents joined in marriage is in fact the better approach to parenting, why deprive children of this?

Plus, I don't have any data to support this supposition, but I'd hazard that gay people almost never have abortions. When a gay person becomes pregnant, you can pretty confidently assume that that person really wants that child.

Passing Prop 8 actually helps to maintain the distinction between church and state.

Is that so? Last I checked, I could go down to a courthouse and get married by an official without a religious affiliation. Where are the protests against when heterosexual couples of differing or no religious affiliation getting married? Marriage is very much interlocked with the American government. As long as the government grants rights and privileges to married couples, it should be subject to political decision-making. Churches would maintain the right to marry who they see fit, but the government would have the opportunity to exclude no one, just as it should be.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court’s ruling specifically states that this decision cannot “impinge upon the religious freedom of any religious organization, official or any other person.” Backers of Proposition 8 like to cite examples from Massachusetts as proof that religious freedoms are lost. These comparisons are unfair because Massachusetts never made a stipulation about religion, whereas the California law clearly has a safeguard in place.

Taking the church's exclusionary definition of marriage and making it a governmental policy, thus applying it to people who do not practice that religion is the real violation of separation of church and state.

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In high school, my history teacher once conducted an informal poll asking whether we thought the country should permit same sex marriage. Most of my peers agreed to allow it, but I raised my hand in the "not sure" category. While I thought it was the fair thing to do to let homosexuals marry, it made me uncomfortable, hence I was unsure. From my perspective, my own unfamiliarity and hesitancy was enough reason to limit the rights of others. (Subsequent encounters and life experiences drastically changed my opinion.)

In this society, I think we're all at least a little homophobic -- including many gay people. We hear so much homophobic rhetoric that, in spit of our better judgment and intentions, we can't help but consider it a "lesser" lifestyle. Until we give it a fair shot, it won't seem normal, because we're not permitting it to be normal.

I believe this discomfort to be the real reason for people to support Prop 8. There are people who are admittedly uncomfortable with the institution of gay marriage and hide behind a few distorted facts to rationalize their position in manners that don’t rely solely upon intolerance. From here, other individuals who are also uncomfortable gladly latch on to these facts, championing them as issues that are deeply important to them; “it’s not that I’m homophobic, it’s that I care about X, Y, and Z.” While I think the aforementioned X, Y, and Z are stretches at best, let’s suppose for a second each of these reasons was entirely legitimate. Why then do these reasons trump the personal freedoms that the Constitution guarantees? Our laws are designed, ideally anyway, to protect the rights of all, including minority groups. Conceding some issues is a small price to pay in order to promote justice for all.

The biggest issue seems to be that people are terrified that gay marriage will lead to restrictions of religious freedom, although religious freedom is clearly protected by the Constitution. These two issues do not have to be at odds with one another. Permitting government sanctioned same-sex marriages does not and should not have effects on religious institutions. The purported fear by religious proponents of Prop 8 is that it puts them one step closer to having the government dictate their private policies. In effect, these people are promoting Prop 8 to preemptively prevent potential lawsuits and other related battles. Obviously, I can’t promise that these conflicts wouldn’t occur, but I would view that as a violation of the church’s rights as established by this country, and would imagine that most citizens would agree and fight to protect these rights. That said, it is wholly unfair to choose deprive a certain group of people of equal status in order to look out for one’s own self first instead. Ideally, we should grant the equality to same-sex couples now, and then, if circumstances necessitate, similarly fight for groups, religious and otherwise, who have their own rights challenged. We can find a way to both reject Prop 8 and still protect the rights of everyone.

I hold out hope that one day society will be embarrassed by our efforts to legalize inequality toward individuals of certain sexual orientations. Our past digressions toward marginalized groups look increasingly stupid as time passes, and I’m betting that this, too, will be a blemish in our history. Let’s not make ourselves look ignorant for any longer than necessary.

No on Prop 8.

54 comments:

Anonymous said...

I am trying to protect my family. I want to be able to teach my children what marriage is without having the schools slam same sex marriage down their little throats.

It does infringe on our religious freedoms- If a clergyman from my church refuses to perform a same sex marriage then he could be sued. Shouldn't he, a religious man, have the right to refuse to perform a marriage that he does not see as suitable before God?

Vote Yes on Prop 8! ;)

Kevin said...

Anonymous,

If gay marriage is the biggest safety concern to your family, you must lead a very secure life.

As a former public school teacher, I can assure you that nothing is slammed down students' throats -- not even things that matter, like algebra. That's not how most people teach. It's silly to imagine that teachers have been holding on to countless gay-themed lesson plans just waiting for the day that they can use them. There's been nothing stopping most teachers from bringing up this topic in the past. From my experience, the truth is that most teachers are at least somewhat homophobic like yourself and won't bring up this issue.

I'm not sure you read the part where I reviewed how the existing court decision (the one that would continue to exist if Prop 8 is rejected) exempts religion. In other words, clergy should not be sued, and even if they are, they will be protected.

A Sarah Palin wink backatcha, doggone it ;)

cait said...

please stop commenting on my blog, I respect your opinion- as you should respect mine. These are opinions, to which we are all entitled and I didn't ask for any of your "rebuttles" on my blog.

Kevin said...

cait&brig:

If only your respect for my opinion extended to respect for all people and their rights. Or at least a respect to open discourse. "I respect your opinion just as long as I don't have to hear it."

If you can't handle a "rebuttle" (sic) or offer one of your own, then you probably don't have a winning case.

Please put a note on your blog asking commenters to only post when they agree with you, so that idiots like me will not attempt to debate. By creating a space where you spread restrictive beliefs without leaving any room for questioning, you have made a blog that is quite similar to your church. Congratulations.

Anonymous said...

kev-

looks like she did leave your comment on her blog. Maybe not the comment that you decided to tell other people they were wrong for opinions that opposed yours. I agree though, healthy debate never hurt anyone.

Oh yes and slamming the LDS religion for the position it has taken is a clear way to discredit your religion of tolerance.

shannon davis said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
shannon davis said...

the last anonymous post was not meant to be. I don't know what happened.

yours truly

shannon

Kevin said...

Shannon:

She did delete one of my comments, and I feel they were both respectful. I will admit to getting snippy in my response here on my own blog, however.

And you know what? I will cop to slamming the LDS church because of the beliefs they hold. The distinction between the types of tolerance you allude to is that I am doing nothing to restrict the rights of Mormons. I am not looking to pass legislation that has consequences toward equality for Mormons, even though I disagree with the church’s stances – and that’s the way it should be. Besides, I grew up in a town with a Mormon church and know and love many Mormons and count them among my friends, so it is nothing personal and I am very tolerant of them. (See? That particular argument can go both ways.)

I found the argument you posted on the other blog quite articulate and think you brought up some good points. Since I have been asked to not post on the other blog, rather than antagonize, I’d like to respond here:

1. This has been a primary issue for other people with whom I have discussed the issue, so I addressed it as such. As that is not true of you, and I respect that, I will try some other approaches instead.

2. You say the main reason for supporting Prop 8 is to reaffirm a decision that voters already made 8 years ago. That is a long time, and society has come a long way to respect people and more tolerant since then. We’ve had a lot of discriminatory laws in this country that were eventually overturned, so to cite precedence as a reason to maintain this inequality is not a stance we should support.

3. Point 3 leads to Point 4, so let’s go there…

4. You make your best argument here about existing legislation on relationships and how our laws and morals are often intertwined. It certainly made me think. When these laws protect those who cannot protect themselves (as with cases of bestiality, molestation) then I can understand why they are in place. When laws restrict/push morality on consenting adults, that’s where I draw the line. I actually don’t have a problem with permitting some of the examples you list like bigamy or prostitution. Even if my personal feelings were to contrast with these lifestyles, I would vote to say that government has no right to decide this for others.

5. You mad another good point about the judges’ role. It is important to note, however, that the judges did this because they found the amendment created in 2000 to be unconstitutional. They didn’t pull this out of nowhere, they instead recognized that it contradicts with the fundamental rights guaranteed at the inception of this country. I feel that judges have a better understanding of the Constitution than your average voter, most of whom have never read the document.

6. I appreciate what you’re saying here. It is your personal belief that heterosexual partnerships are more special than homosexual relationships. Fine. In your personal life, continue to believe that. In your church, continue to hold heterosexual marriage as a better thing. However, the government should have no right to decide that for people.

At any rate, thanks for civilly continuing this dialogue. I still don’t agree with your stance, but I feel that I understand it better, and would love continuing the conversation further.

Kevin said...

As a point of reference to what I was replying to in the above post, I'm going to copy what Shannon posted on the other blog in question. Shannon offers some good food for thought, so it is worth a read:


Kevin -

As I understand your position, you seem to be making the following points:

1. The most significant problem proponents of Prop 8 have with same sex marriage is that it will result in subsequent restrictions to religious freedom;
2. Thus, by promoting Prop 8, proponents of the measure are really just trying to "preemptively prevent potential lawsuits" etc.;
3. Such fears, however, are misplaced because: (1) the constitution protects religious freedom, and (2) even if such fears materialized, the public would likely support the right of the churches to continue to discriminate;
4. Therefore, proponents of Prop 8 should just relax because permitting same sex marriage will most likely not result in the kind of "restrictions to religious freedom" that they are so worried about.

If I misinterpreted your position, please let me know, but if not, here are the problems I have with your argument:

1. The entire premise for your argument is misplaced. You presume that the "biggest" issue for proponents of Prop 8 is that one day the government will try and make churches recognize and practice same sex marriage or even criminalize the condemnation of homosexuality from the pulpit. Now while I acknowledge that many proponents of Prop 8 likely have such concerns, they are at least a few spots down on the list of reasons the majority of Prop 8 supporters are against same sex marriage. In fact, the website created to educated and inform potential voters about Prop 8, http://www.protectmarriage.com/, does not even mention subsequent religious persecutions as a reason "to vote yes" on Prop 8. In other words, you picked a minor and even unconsidered issue for many voters and turned it into THE issue for Prop 8 supporters and then tried to explain it away.

2. So what is THE issue for proponents of Prop 8? According to the literature, the website, and from anecdotal discussions with other Prop 8 supporters, the real issue is that they believe the people of California should be the ones to decide how to define marriage within their state. That's it. Voters in California thought they had already settled the issue in 2000 when they amended the California Family Code to define marriage as between only a man and a woman, but when Gavin Newsome flouted the law and married people of the same sex anyway, and when the California Supreme Court got involved and overturned the Appellate Court's ruling preserving the status quo, California voters were once again forced to get involved and now amend the California Constitution to reflect what they thought they had taken care of 8 years ago.

3. Consequently, unless you are saying that Californians should not have the right to amend their constitution, and I don't think you are, then your problem is not with the fact that millions of Californians want to be the ones to decide how marriage will be defined in their state, but instead, you have a problem with a potential justification of how some Californians may have reached their conclusion. There again, you miss the point.

4. A society's moral code/mores/norms are interwoven with its laws. The two are inevitably intertwined. We punish stealing, killing, lying, using prohibited substances, and all sorts of other conduct. Why? Because we have decided as a society that this punishable behavior. That's it. And because we value life more than property, we punish homicide more than larceny. These are value judgments we have written into our laws. Likewise, we have enacted laws that proscribe certain relationships because we as a society have decided that they are not relationships that should be sanctioned by the state. Such laws include prohibitions against bigamy, bestiality, prostitution, having a marital relationship with those who are under age or who are close relatives, and other such laws. Now, if a society decides that it wants to change these laws to permit bigamy, for example, then fine, that's why we have a legislature. If they want to change the law, they can change it. But in the case of same sex marriage in California, that's not what happened.

5. Here, 61% of Californians voted to define marriage a certain way in 2000. This year, the Court stepped in and overruled the people. Now the people are coming forward to trump the Court. The people want to be the ones making the law, not the judiciary - their job is to interpret the law, not create it.

6. Consequently, if you are trying to tell proponents of Prop 8 that they are wrong for wanting to prohibit same sex marriage, then fine, but then all you are really saying is that your moral judgment is right and my moral judgment is wrong. Don't confuse the issue by trying to take an ancillary concern for a few voters and make it THE issue at stake in the Prop 8 debate - it's not. What's at issue is that we believe that while same sex couples should have all the legal rights as heterosexual couples, such unions should not rise to the distinction of being "marriages" because we have made a moral judgment that such relationships are not ones that society should put on the same moral ground with heterosexual relationships. You can disagree with our moral assessment, but you can't change the argument.

shannon davis said...

Thank you for your thoughtful response. There are just a few more points I would like to add to this discussion:

1. I don't believe I said that the main reason for supporting Prop 8 is simply to reaffirm a decision voters made 8 years ago. In fact, what I said was, "the real issue is that they [Prop 8 supporters] believe the people of California should be the ones to decide how to define marriage within their state. That's it." I went on to mention that the voters had already done so eight years previously, but I did not make the argument, as you seemed to infer, that blindly maintaining "precedence" or the status quo was the primary issue. So let me clarify THE issue, as I see it, one more time: Californians want to be the ones to decide how marriage will be defined in their state, they do not want this decision left up to the courts, accordingly, they have used the California initiative process to further their objective. I agree with you that keeping laws on the books just because they are on the books is not only circular, but also, bad policy. But that's not what's happening here. Prop 8 supporters want to amend the California Constitution not just because the law is on the books, they want to do so because they think it's the right thing to do. So in the end, the issue becomes simply whether this amendment represents the right or wrong decision.

2. That leads us to the question of morality and law and where the government, or in this case the people of California, should be allowed to draw the line in matters of personal morality. You have said that you don't believe the government has any right to decide who can and can't get married so long as the parties are consenting adults. However, the California Supreme Court had a different view. For example, when discussing the distinction between same sex marriage and polygamy they found that, unlike with same sex marriage, "Past judicial decisions explain why our nation's culture has considered [polygamous relationships] inimical to the mutually supportive and healthy family relationships promoted by the Constitutional right to marry." Huh? In essence, the court is saying that same sex marriage is okay because our culture has changed to now accept it as a "healthy family relationship" but because our culture has not yet gotten behind the polygamous movement, it is not yet an accepted "healthy family relationship" and should therefore continue to be prohibited. So what is the court really saying? Changing culture is what led the court to its decision to allow same sex marriage. Thus, if the issue that swung the court was that society's culture had changed, then why can't the California people stand up and tell the court that in fact the culture has not changed - at least, not enough, not yet. It is intellectually dishonest to cite to culture as the primary reason for changing how marriage should be defined, but then run and hide behind a flawed "fundamental rights" argument when the culture stands up and tells you that you are wrong.

3. So, finally, let me address this notion of what is or is not a fundamental right. First of all, the California Supreme Court was not interpreting the US Constitution as you seemed to imply in point #5. In fact, a state Supreme Court does not even have the power to interpret the US Constitution - it is not a federal court. Instead, it could look only to its own state Constitution in carving out a right for same sex marriage. Second, determining whether same sex marriage fell within an established fundamental right guaranteed under the state Constitution was actually a point of major contention that was, in fact, arguably "pulled out of a hat" because it was one that no court in civilized history (except recently in Massachusetts) had EVER acknowledged. In fact, the Appellate Court had just previously held that the fundamental right to marry had always actually been limited in its scope by every civilization. They held that the right to marry does not mean that one has the right to marry whomever or whatever one likes, but instead is limited to mean that one has the right to marry one person, of age, of the opposite sex. This is what the right has always been defined as. People have not had the right to marry a rainbow, their horse, a sister, a 9 year old, three women, or someone of the same sex. Those have always been the restrictions placed on this "fundamental right" since the notion of "rights" and the rule of law was even introduced. So to come along now and claim that it is a forgone conclusion that the "fundamental right" to marry extends to people of the same sex is not only historically unprecedented and inaccurate, it is a cop out. Both sides know that this decision is really about a changing culture. If the right was so obviously protected by the Constitution, there would not even be a fight. But because the right is not obvious, we, as a people, are left to try and figure it out for ourselves. So why not let the people make the decision? That's all Prop 8 supporters want.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Kevin, for helping spread the word about the bigotry of Prop 8. You make some excellent points here.

Anonymous said...

Wow. Both sides make some excellent arguments, but after reading all of this, I am definitely voting yes on Prop 8.

Anonymous said...

It is my personal opinion that society can not change what society did not create. Unfortunately for the gay community (and the polygamists, and the crazy people out there who want to marry those underage) marriage isn't just for people who love each other. Marriage is a sacred institution between two people-one man and one woman. Marriage between one man and one woman is the only way for society to continue.
Civil unions give the same rights as marriage, with two exceptions. One, federal tax benefits, and two, the actual word 'marriage'. I agree whole-heartedly that gay couples should have all the rights as a married couple, even adopting children. However, a civil union and marriage are different, and therefore should be called something different. The term “homosexual” is different than “heterosexual” right?
The outcome of a civil union will not, and physically can not, produce what a marriage can.

Anonymous said...

Here is my issue with you Kevin and the other outspoken liberals who support "No" on Prop 8: You want others to give to you what you refuse to give others..TOLERANCE.
I have watched as "No" supporters have:
1) Stolen over 1000 "Yes" signs and BURNED them in my church parking lot
2) Continuously called large "Yes" donors and belittled/harrassed them
3) Sought to have "Yes" donors businesses/livlihoods boycotted
4) Disowned their own blood brother due to his support of "Yes"
5) Removed "Yes" supporters as friends in facebook because they suport "Yes"
6) Just yesterday 3 18 yr old kids were caught and arrested for stealing signs out of my family's yard - a felony and more important a violation of first ammendment right.
The above actions are full of hatred and lack tolerance. Your people say one thing and practice another. They demand tolerance while giving none. The actions of "No" supporters undermines your call of tolerance, your call to not use fear tactics, and your call to eliminate hatred.

Kevin said...

Thanks for responding again, Shannon, I feel that we are having a strong debate:

1. Sorry if I misunderstood, and your clarification allows me to now see your point. I think we can both agree that, as you said "the issue becomes simply whether this amendment represents the right or wrong decision" even though we evidently don't agree on the sides.

2. You argue that the California Supreme Court is deciding what culture now accepts and that society is accordingly revolting. Here, I begrudgingly agree. That is what is happening. The fact is that homosexuality is gaining acceptance and the poll numbers show the gap shrinking, especially compared to the result in 2000. Perhaps the judges will be proven wrong, that society, by majority vote, is not at the point of acceptance, but we both know the issue won't just go away. In one form or another, it'll be a proposition again within the next few of years, I'd imagine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your language on this topic, saying that "culture has not changed - at least, not enough, not yet" even seems to indicate that you can see the majority perspective on this opinion going the other way in the future. Even if Prop 8 passes now, I see the overturning of this amendment in the future, and I feel it's inevitable. Like civil rights movements in the past, change is met with resistance for a while until enough minds are swayed. I'm curious, and I will not take this as a concession that you have the wrong perspective by any means, but do you think marriage will be defined as being between a man and woman indefinitely?

It was about half a century ago that interracial marriage was banned in many places because it made people uncomfortable. If it weren't for the courts realizing this was unfair, it would have been outlawed for much longer. Sure, the judges were probably partially influenced by a society that was starting to accept it, but in many states the populace was not prepared to condone this behavior. I see many parallels to the same sex marriage issue.

3. Again, your arguments are stronger than any I have encountered in several debates I've had on this subject. However, I don't agree that "if the right was so obviously protected by the Constitution, there would not even be a fight." Countless times, issues have gone before courts and ballots that would seem clear otherwise and need to be sorted out. Also, our personal feelings and biases have been known to trump the Constitution. Looking at the Constitution, you'd never guess that slavery could have ever been permitted in this country, let alone amend it to specify that slaves count as 3/5 of a person.

When you say "both sides know that this decision is really about a changing culture," I 100% agree. Let's call a spade a spade. As much as this argument is made to be about the definition of marriage, it's really not. What is really being voted on is whether we want to "accept" or "support" gay people. We cover up this notion with layers of bullshit. Do I personally care about how marriage is defined? Ultimately, no. Granted, I can't speak for everyone, but on my part this IS a symbolic move, and I think that's true for many on both sides. In that sense, that is exactly why I wish this were NOT put to a proposition vote and instead a judicial or legislative decision. We elect/appoint them under the assumption that they have the wisdom to carry out the law without religious or personal influences. I'll concede that this is certainly idealized, but your average citizens do not familiarize themselves with the documents and laws to make a decision that isn't at least partially influenced by personal feelings.

That is why I support a "No" vote on 8. It's my way of saying that I as a citizen have no right to make a constitutional amendment that amounts to legislating other people's personal lives.

Thanks again for your comments, Shannon.

Kevin said...

Anonymous:

I don't see why procreation is even an issue with marriage. As it is, we don't make people promise to have kids when they get married.

The world is undergoing a population epidemic, an issue for which I feel even more passionately than the same-sex marriage topic if you'd believe that, and probably warrants its own post. At this stage in our world's development, it is not even necessary to promote reproduction. We are fast approaching too many people and there won't be enough space or resources to handle the influx. When people argue that we need arrangements that promote procreation, I can't help but scoff. If we're looking down the road a century from now, we actually need to do our best to encourage people to limit the number of children they create. We cannot sustain the planet with our current growth rate. In that sense, childless couples, gay or otherwise, should be commended. Those who adopt, again, both hetero and homosexual, are even more commendable because they are taking on the difficult job of parenting while not adding to the existing population.

Kevin said...

Anonymous:

I don't appreciate the accusation that I have anything to do with your list of grievances. I engage in debate, but nothing intimidating, and certainly nothing unlawful.

I do not condone harassment or stealing signs. These moves are not fair, legal, or ultimately helpful as they just add tension instead of dialogue. That said, though I am not personally boycotting anyone over this matter, I think it is fine for people to choose what businesses they support. Why would I want to buy shoes from someone if I know my money is going to be used to fund something I oppose? Also, the Facebook issue is pretty trivial, I'd imagine these people weren't really good friends to start anyway.

At any rate, these are not "my people" as you declare. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who are voting for Prop 8 because they out and out hate gay people and would support their imprisonment/extermination. I'm sure you wouldn't want to be lumped together with them just because you both are voting Yes.

I would agree that people on both sides of Prop 8 need to exhibit more tolerance.

Anonymous said...

Kevin, I think it's time you responded to the "Write Now" Blog or have you read it and can't come up with anything?

Kevin said...

Anonymous - Are you really going to accuse me of being at a loss for words? Post the link, I'm not sure what you want me to look at.

Kevin said...

Nevermind, I found it.
http://ashadeandd.blogspot.com/2008/10/thank-you-prop-8-supporters.html

Anonymous said...

Kevin,

By voting yes on proposition 8, it does not mean that I do not "accept" or "support" gay people. My Aunt is gay and one of the best damned people I know. I accept and support her to the fullest extent. I do, however, believe that marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman and that belief has nothing to do with the respect and love I have for my gay family members and friends.
As far as my belief that marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman, you might say that belief is a part of my core being, just as my aunts sexual orientation is a core part of her being. We cannot change who we are.
As far as your comment about overpopulation, this is where I cannot simply agree to disagree. I am both paradoxically saddened and humored by your ignorance. All but 18 countries in the entire world are currently experiencing a demographic transition called population aging. In other words, fertility rates are DOWN and life expectancy rates are UP. China is in deep trouble because of their encouragement and now law that limits the number of children couples can have. The consequences are unimaginable. A shrinking workforce is just the beginning. Our parents will probably live longer than our grandparents and you and I will live longer than our parents, much thanks to medical technology. Now tell me, who is going to take care of you when you're eighty five? The kids you don't have? Or the already rapidly declining medical workforce? You clearly have liberal viewpoints and I am surprised (considering I went to a liberal University and received this information there) that you are not aware of this not so recent trend. More importantly, my heart is deeply saddened because you believe that for some reason we are running the show here on planet earth and not God. I do not think that we should encourage those who procreate to limit the number, but rather we need to encourage couples who are married to procreate and highly discourage and educate those who are not married to not procreate. Come on Kev, the family is the fundamental unit of society. It just works better that way. You cannot possibly argue that, even though I'm sure you'll try

Karen said...

Thanks for commenting on my blog. Although a lot of issues that we're facing today I don't actually pay attention to nearly as much as I probably should, the issue of Gay Rights is something that hits really close to home for me (I have several gay/bi friends). It's nice to know that when I do express my opinions they do reach people other than just my friends.
Good work on this post, it's insanely long but insanely interesting, haha. I really appreciate that people have spent so much time contemplating whether keeping the traditional "definition" of marriage is more important than giving equal rights....

Kevin said...

To the latest anonymous post,

There is a great deal of irony in someone who believes that God is "running the show here on planet earth" is "paradoxically saddened and humored by [my] ignorance."

I defy you to show me reliable statistics that demonstrate the world's population is decreasing. That is simply not the case. I will concede that the population growth rate has decreased from its peak rate, but it is still rapidly increasing.

Midway through this document by the UN, there is a chart giving the population by numbers:
http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/sixbillion/sixbilpart1.pdf

Currently the world has about 6.5 billion people. Within 40 years, we will have nearly 9 billion people. In the past century alone, our population has TRIPLED. While our rate is slowing a bit, we are still headed toward destruction.

You concern seems to be that we need to keep popping out babies so that there is an even workforce. I will definitely concede that harnessing the population growth will have some economic and logistical effects that would disrupt our "more more more" lifestyles we lead currently. But that alone is not a reason to keep reproducing at alarming rates, doing so would be remarkably short-sighted. Why attempt to prevent some problems that could realistically be handled when we have an even larger problem that will be more destructive looming in the future?

I certainly will not argue that a family is the fundamental unit of society, but I will argue that your narrow view of what constitutes a family is unreasonable. Families, in essence, are support systems, and this works differently for many people. Who are you to decide what makes a "real" family?

Anonymous said...

And who are you to decide what a family is? Why is it that liberals get to decide everything? Any time the conservative voice speaks up, liberals FREAK out and declare us as non-accepting people and then the whole equal rights non sense gets thrown over it all to blanket the issue.
And perhaps you seem to not realize that the reason the world's population is increasing is because people are living a lot longer, not because we are having insane amounts of babies. Just take a gander at Europe, particularly Germany.
Cut the neo-classical/modern/new-age thinking bull crap. One of the most ironic characteristics that most liberals seem to possess is the idea that they are open-minded and not ignorant. They are apparently so non-judgmental and accept all people for who they are. Just like the liberal leaders in San Francisco who have let illegal aliens who commit murder off the hook. Our society is in the dumps all because of being "open-minded" and "accepting all people".

PUH-LEASE!

You my friend seem to think you are much mightier and smarter than God. And let me guess, science is going to solve everything and answer all of our questions, huh? Yeah, you and Tom Cruise.

Kevin said...

Latest anonymous poster,

By virtue of not defining a family, I'm actually NOT deciding what a family is. That's not my place. I think more people need to recognize that it's not their business to stick their nose in others' personal lives. It's really convenient when people tout their own way of life as the RIGHT way of life. When have you ever been accepting to someone telling you to live your own life differently?

Yes, longer life span does increase the world's population, but that is just one small factor. Reproduction is the main cause.

I think people on your side don't even want you expressing that "our society is in the dumps all because of being 'open-minded' and 'accepting all people.'" Are you copping to being close-minded and not accepting of all people and that that is a good approach? You also call "equal rights non sense (sic)" indicating that you don't believe in equal rights. If that's how you feel, I strongly disagree, and I can guarantee we'll never see eye to eye on that.

You accuse me of being ignorant. I am ignorant, but then, we all are. Acknowledging this is important.

if God does exist, I'd be willing to bet I am neither mightier or smarter than God. But I don't know about God, and though I was raised in a church, God never made its presence known to the point where I listen to the Bible over listening to my own conscience. I make choices the best I know how with what little I do know.

You use the word science as if it is preposterous. In that case, kindly stop benefiting from all of the conveniences science has afforded society. Also, scientology is quite a misnomer, and has little to do with actual science. If you are associating the two entities you are making a big mistake.

YUH-WELCOME!

PS: Can you have someone like Shannon continue your argument for you? She had many intelligent, sensical points that challenged my perspective, whereas this...

Anonymous said...

You apparently did not pick up on the sarcasm in many of my points. eg., equal rights, scientology etc.
I'm not racing you to the intelligence masters finish line, although "knowing things" and seeking purely after what you deem to be intelligence seems to be the avenue where you find your self esteem.

I may not be able to articulate myself as well as you in writing, that's not one of my strengths. You can challenge my way of thinking and disagree with it all day long, but the low blow personal attacks to my apparent inability to express myself with the keyboard and placing my intelligence level below yours because I disagree with you is confusing and quite distracting to the argument and off topic to me.

The bottom line is that I DO NOT SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE AND I NEVER WILL. This does not mean that I do not support my gay friends and family members. All of your arguments go against the deeply held beliefs I have and I will not try to use logic or "intelligence" as you put it, to defend my reasoning. It is a core part of my being and soul.

We can agree on one thing. As you mentioned above, I am just going with my conscience. My conscience, however, has always told me that the institution of marriage is a sacred thing meant for a man and a woman. That you cannot argue. I cannot forsake that belief simply because of what society is adopting as the norm.

Perhaps this is why Proposition 8 has become such a big deal. People have strong opinions when it comes to society and moral standards. Many people simply do not accept gay marriage for the sole reason that it does not align with their belief system and their conscience does not agree with it. You cannot judge a person for that, just like you can't judge a gay person for being gay. It's who they are. No logic you use can change that.

Simply put, I do not agree with you. You cannot change that, you will not change that. I am just speaking my opinion because often times the conservative voice is trampled out. The liberal voice is so loud.

lewis said...

i'm pretty well convinced that if you don't support gay marriage, then you don't have any gay friends. just sayin'.


i'm in arizona, so, no on 102!

Anonymous said...

Kevin--
I have enjoyed reading the train of comments on here. I am a prop 8 supporter, and I do have to laugh at the comment immediately above. I guess you just don't believe us when we say, 'we have gay friends who we love and support.' But I digress.


You have made some interesting arguments, but there is one point with which I have to soundly disagree (and then a couple points I'd like to make myself). You are confident that should religious freedoms ever be threatened, the citizens of this country would come to their rescue. Except for the religious people whose freedoms would be threatened (and you, I suppose), I would put money on the fact that this would not happen.


As has been discussed, the culture of this country has, and is, changing. Part of this is the growing acceptance of homosexuality. Part of this is a growing fear of and intolerance towards religion. As I watch TV, read the paper, and talk with my colleagues (many of whom don't initially realize I am religious) the cardinal sin seems that of a conservative or religious bent. When public discourse seems to be in favor of painting the religious population of America as blindly devoted, irrational zealots, your hope of drumming up support for their cause seems slim. I can't speak with the authority of an randomized controlled trial, but my anecdotal experience shows that people are mightily swayed by the mainstream media, and the mainstream media says it's okay to make fun of/ridicule religion. I wish I were not right about this, but believe that I am.
The irony of the 'open-minded liberals' belittling those who have divergent opinions has always amused and unsettled me.


2)As for the education piece, I'm surprised that as a former school teacher, you give yourself so little credit. As a parent, I am witness everyday to what sponges children are. They soak up everything they hear, albeit not algebra. ;) This especially true with regards to those who they respect, a group among which teachers are often counted. It is true that as it stands, parents have a right to choose whether their children are taught about gay marriage in the classroom. You say this makes us different from Massachusetts, and thus we can't use their current state of affairs as an example of what would happen. But the status quo would. most. definitely. change.

Once something is given legal weight, it becomes increasingly difficult for people (judges/teachers/school boards) to justify why a parent is allowed to opt out of its teaching. In my heart of hearts, I believe it is naive to not see the issues which Massachusetts has faced in years subsequent to legalization of gay-marriage will be common, at some point in time, to every state which makes the same choice. Certainly it is not outlandish to ponder this possibility.

3)There will always be people who think gay marriage is morally wrong, and there will always be people who think it is not. If it is legal, however, I wonder what would happen to our ability to speak out as such in five, ten, and fifteen years. Of course it is conjecture. It is all we have without the benefit of a crystal ball, so of course we look down the line and contemplate what the long-term, worst-case scenario consequences could be. I think it is a reasonable part of any analysis. As a doctor evaluating a patient, I have to think first of the diagnoses that would kill them if I missed. As a citizen, we try to evaluate a law for what harm it could do to us or our neighbor if it passed. Then we weight that against its possible or perceived benefits. Since we disagree about this being a civil rights issue, many prop 8 supporters don't feel like we're looking out for our own selfish interests (as you previously asserted) ahead of the basic rights of our fellow citizens.

I had a history teacher in high school who was as left of left as they come. He had a poster in his classroom that said, "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will protect to the death your right to say it." A) It was patently untrue. He just didn't feel that way and it showed in how he did(not) tolerate the expression of opposing views. B) I worry that this country is losing some of its cultural pull towards this idea. Our constitution does protect free speech. I hope and pray that as this country becomes more passionately divided in its ideology, we don't move in the direction of "hate speech" laws that muzzle people on both sides from saying what they believe to be true.

Anyhoo, thanks for the interesting reading. :)
Katia

Shannon "Fuller" Davis said...

wow I leave for a weekend and look at your comments... some not so great. I will respond shortly. It took an hour to catch up.

Anonymous said...

As far as that ad is concerned I'm more outraged by the insidious monarchist propaganda of the 'princes and princesses' book. Our great democratic nation was founded in a revolution against decadent monarchist England. Why should our children be taught to 'tolerate' the evils of monarchy?

Kevin said...

To the anonymous poster who cops to not being a good arguer and will not be convinced to think differently,

Let's not hash this out any further, then. Between the two of us, a debate is a fruitless exercise.


To the next anonymous poster,

Boo who?


Lewis,

I'm vacationing in Arizona right now. Thus far I've only seen Yes on 102 signs. :( Do you know what the latest poll numbers are?


Shannon,

I'm eager to hear your upcoming thoughts.


Alex,

Funny. I think that's another good example of how teaching the existence of something doesn't mean advocating it.


Katia,

Thanks for your comments, you've definitely brought some new insight.

1) One of my undergraduate majors was Media Studies, so I am well aware of its effects and am in agreement that it sways the way people think. The media is certainly antagonistic, but I hardly think religion is its only target. Depending on the specific media outlet, you're bound to find a bias going one way or another.

As a non-religious person, I would say I see far more positive representations of religion (well, particularly Christianity, I cannot say the same of Islam, for example) than negative, but perhaps that's because I'm more sensitive to that. This is a phenomenon I learned about in my studies about how people pick up on the material that counters their own beliefs and ignores the content that coincides as it doesn't arose any anger. Perhaps you see the opposite for the same reason.

The reason I feel that religious rights will be upheld in this country, is because more than 80% of Americans still identify with a particular religion, with nearly 3/4 of them identifying as Christians. That is a firm majority in this country! If rights of this populace were to be stripped, I cannot imagine they would act indifferently, there would be an even bigger outcry than with this particular debate. We have yet to have a president in our country's history that has not officially identified himself as Christian. I cannot possibly see how the government would enact any large blows to religion, particularly from politicians who know that most voters are Christian.

I get the sense that some of the more free-thinking proponents of Prop 8 would not vote in favor of the measure if they could be assured it would have no affect on how they practice religion. But you're right, we have no crystal ball, so...

2) Part of the reason I don't give myself much credit is because of the specific school environment in which I taught. From your respectful manner of your comments, I would guess that you raise your children to be respectful, too. I can assure you that unfortunately, there are many places where parents do not teach their kids the value of education or to respect their teachers. For example, our open house/back to school nights had fewer than 5% attendance, so maybe that will explain

In many other circumstances, however, I agree with you. Children are sponges. But I do maintain that there is a difference in acknowledging the existence of homosexuals and teaching them to be homosexuals.

I take your point to heart when you say you know there is a difference in the laws with Massachusetts, but "certainly it is not outlandish to ponder this possibility." I can appreciate that. I can see that you've thought about it, and I can understand your continued hesitation and the uncertainty of what could follow. I would still counter that it is worth facing that uncertainty to uphold equal rights for people, but I can see where you are coming from.

3) Why do you consider this to not be a civil rights issue? Where do you make the distinction? (This is not meant to be antagonistic, but I'm curious since I perceive you as a levelheaded individual.)

As for the history teacher, I know of people like him, too. I don't like people on metaphorical high horses, either. (Evidently, I am taken to be one by some people reading this, however, and I'll take that into consideration.) I would argue that there are individuals on the religious right who are comparable in their outlandishness and hypocrisy. But let me do one better than that right now and just admit that there most certainly are blowhard liberals with suspiciously selective tolerance. They exist, and often I don't like having them on my team when debating these things. I think it's far more productive and progressive to open your mind to the other perspective and conduct discussions like these in a rational manner -- something that is, well, on occasion happening in this comment section. It seems to me that the calmer discussions that include concessions from both sides are more worthwhile in, if not actually changing one another's mind, allowing us to respect one another more.

Thanks again, Katia.

shannon davis said...

Thanks again for your comments, sorry for the delay. I have just a couple things to add:

1. The parallels you and others make between the struggles of homosexuals today and those of blacks during the civil rights movement (and even still today) are admittedly very difficult to deal with. It is a powerful comparison for those who see no real distinction between the two movements, and predictably, it makes sense for you to use the blueprint of what blacks went through to gain equality, defeat Jim Crow laws, end prohibitions on interracial marriage and other such struggles as an overlay of what the homosexuals are going through today. And under that framework, that is, operating under the assumption that there is no material difference between being homosexual and wanting equality and being black, or Irish, or a woman and wanting equality, you are right, you win - we would have no moral or ethical grounds on which to make any argument whatsoever. Accordingly, I suppose the best way to sum up our argument is that we simply do not agree with your underlying assumption. In other words, we believe there is an important material difference between being gay and being black.

2. The difference is that being black or being a woman or being Irish does not involve behavior. Race, sex and national origin are, among others, what are defined as immutable characteristics. In other words, because you are born that way, these characteristics are not ones that should influence the rights you are afforded under the law. The fact that so many kingdoms and countries, including our own, got it it wrong so many times in so many ways is one of the tragedies of history and I am certainly sensitive to the fact that no one wants to get it wrong again, and I understand that that is exactly how the homosexual community sees this fight. Nevertheless, I feel comfortable in standing by the position that there is a significant difference between race and sexual orientation.

3. Maybe you can correct me, but I do not believe the homosexual community has come out and argued that they deserve to get married like everybody else because they were "born that way." I understand that many, if not most, probably believe that they were, and that just like with race, there is nothing they can do about it - it is who they are. However, I think the powers that be within the movement have avoided using this characterization because (1) the science to support such a claim is not there, and (2) it forecloses the possibility of bisexuals or others who "choose" a lifestyle of homosexuality from making the immutable characteristic argument that is central to the truly accurate comparison between homosexuality and race. In other words, whereas blacks could easily say that it is wrong to discriminate against them because they were born that way, the homosexual movement is not willing to go there because the nature/nurture debate is scientifically unsettled and because they do not want to limit who has entry into their classification.

4. So again, since we believe the distinction to be one of behavior, the question then becomes: what is wrong with homosexual behavior? You probably won't like the answer, but, I doubt it will surprise you. I can't speak for all who are against same sex marriage, but I can speak for those who believe that homosexuality represents a perversion of a sacred level of intimacy that God has reserved for a marital relationship between a man and a woman. I fully recognize that this kind of explanation is inadequate for many because it is rooted in a scriptural framework and heritage that many do not accept as truth. However, for those who believe the Bible to be the very Word of God, when it speaks of the sin of homosexuality, "believers" take such passages very seriously are interpret them to be God's will - end of subject. Thus, like I said, it may not be a satisfactory answer for you, but most of those who are against equating same sex marriage with traditional marriage feel that the primary difference is that whereas a sexual relationship between a married man and woman is ordained of God, homosexuality is not. Thus, while it may seem trite, for many, homosexuality is wrong simply because God says it is. Accordingly, the reason why we do not accept the premise that homosexuals and blacks are fighting for the same thing is because we believe they are not fighting with the same moral equivalency.

lewis said...

katia:

i meant what i said. you have no gay friends. you cannot possibly "love and support" someone when you clearly devalue THEIR love. you may think you're their friend, but they are not your friend back.

believe me.

so marriage is sacred between a man and a woman? well then how come no one is in vegas protesting the thousands of spur of the moment marriages that are based not out of love but out of liquor? how come none of you are out trying to do something about the divorce rates i this country? i think straight people are destroying the sanctity of marriage pretty damn well themselves.

during a time when their is just so much hate, death, and sadness in the world, i don't understand why some people are making it a priority to take something wonderful, emotional, and exciting away from someone else. we should all be sharing in love; not taking it away.



kevin:

no idea. i honestly haven't heard anything about it. and there are no on 102 signs, they just aren't as bright, big or flashy.

gay marriage is already not allowed here, i believe it was on the ballot last election and arizona voted against it. 102 is to have the ban added to the arizona constitution. which is a huge deal, actually. and, as if arizona doesn't have more important things to be spending money on - like EDUCATION. but as for poll #s i don't know. i will do some investigative work and get back to you.


and a friendly PS to everyone...

remember, the bible also says wearing two different types of fabric at the same time is a sin. check yourself, and see you all in hell!

lewis said...

i used the wrong their. i know this. i am ashamed.

Kevin said...

Shannon,

Again, I agree with most of your points, though we do differ in the ultimate interpretation of these shared views.

1. I sincerely believe that you do see a difference between racial and sexual orientation inequality, and I'm glad that you make an argument for this case, as it is a good reminder that your view doesn't necessarily come from a place of hatred. I would just counter by reminding that at the time of the civil rights movement, the majority of people did view people in a comparable light and came around to a more enlightened perspective, though it is a prolonged process. I feel the same movement is inevitable with this issue, too.

2. I get your point about behavior and see the distinction. I would even agree/concede that people should be judged based on their behavior. We judge murderers, rapists, etc. That said, I don't see how the behavior of homosexuals can be defined as inherently wrong. Homosexuals involve themselves in intimate relationships just like heterosexuals. To say that someone should not do that with a person of the same sex then becomes an issue of gender discrimination of sorts. Even the sexual acts of homosexuals, which seems to be a major point of contention with some, are enacted in heterosexual relationships. Heterosexual couples engage in anal sex, fellatio, and cunnilingus, too.

3. You hit upon something interesting. I'm not part of any strategy meetings or whatnot, but I would imagine there is an intentional avoidance of justifying that people are "born that way." Homosexuality means different things to different people. For some it is a biological impulse, for some it is the freedom of choice, and for some it is a way of challenging societal norms. Point taken.

4. Your last point sums up our schism. In the end, it is your religion that causes you to decide that homosexuality is wrong. The best I can do to attempt to sway you is yet again remind you that there is a distinction between church and state, and perhaps you can see the value governmentally in voting accordingly.

I'm sure you'll counter my next claim, but the conclusion that I'm left to make from your own concluding point that ultimately what distinguishes homosexuality as wrong is God's word. Consequently, those who do no believe in God or do not believe that this is God's word should NOT be voting to eliminate the rights of homosexuality, as otherwise, there is not a strong justification. Of course, many of the reasons that Prop 8 proponents use are distractions and small potatoes compared to the main reasons: religious conviction and/or bigotry, but if these were the main reasons being presented in the ads, the proposition would not stand a chance at passing.

Blogdor said...

Shannon Davis summed up what I feel is the strongest argument defining "fundamental rights" and explicating court decisions outlawing polygamy. I will try and add to those to the best of my ability. Her arguments lead us to more philosophical assumptions. We delve into the realm of moral relativity.

You are agnostic, but you have morals. Therefore morals are not inherently religious. So I have a question. Do Prop 8 opponents support NAMBLA (http://www.nambla.org/)? Do a consenting adult and a consenting minor have the fundamental right to have intercourse? Can a 45 year old man have intercourse with your 9 year old son? Assume both parties consent. I would hopefully assume that most people, including you, don't condone that. So is it a "fundamental right" to do that? NAMBLA thinks so.

You see, just about everyone has some commonality in their morals. We have another example in child pornography. So long as little children consent, why can't they monetarily benefit by posing in sexually explicit, or implicit for that matter, ways? The answers to this question will cover the field, but all arguments ultimately boil down to the fact that something is inherently wrong. And there we have it. That word that moral relativists can't stand. Wrong.

Polygamy is wrong.

Child pornography is wrong.

Sexual relationships between boys and men is wrong.

Things that are wrong...are wrong.

Who ultimately decides what is wrong? Well, that's a completely different argument. But when it comes to moral boundaries and the law, someone has to draw the line. Society would quickly spiral into absolute chaos were moral relativism to reign.

In the current debate, a seeming majority of the people, be it due to religion or some other motive force, feel that gay marriage is wrong. Californians have been given the opportunity to draw a moral line in the dirt. People of all backgrounds are voting to do just that. The fortunate or unfortunate result is that the majority will decide what "fundamental rights" people actually have. Californians will place a moral absolute (albeit most likely temporary) on the definition of marriage based on what the majority feels is right or wrong.

But let us not confuse moral rights with "fundamental rights." Fortunately for the GLBT community, society will not deprive them of any fundamental right. Every one of them can still be legally married to someone of the opposite sex. For others who want to enjoy a Registered Domestic Partnership with some of the same sex, they according to the California Family Code section 295.5, "Shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses." So the FACT is Kevin, domestic partnerships ARE the same thing legally. The reality is, they are different because they are not marriages. They never will be. So let's not call a spade a club.

I perchance say the vast majority of the world population views marriage as an institution that transcends government. But marriage inherently implicates governmental recognition. However, government doesn't ultimately possess the right to define marriage. The people, the society, the culture of California do.

Marriage between a man and a woman is culturally deemed a moral right and a civic fundamental right. Domestic partnerships between any two consenting adults, enjoying everything that spouses enjoy, is a civic fundamental right.

And finally, the Civil Rights Movement and the Gay Rights Movement are hardly comparable. Regardless of how hard I try, I can not, in no way, be African American. In fact, I would have loved to have been African American when I was applying to dental school. But it just can't happen. It's impossible. I can't choose my race. I can choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, or to enter a domestic partnership with some of the same sex. Humans' ability to choose differentiates these two movements. If you want, we can take this argument down the same moral relativity path to drill in the point. But our choices have consequences that individuals can't ultimately choose. So, after a bunch of logical connections...blah, blah, blah...homosexuals can't be married because homosexual couples can't marry. Society at large has already determined that consequence. Homosexual couples are only deprived of something their choices have already excluded them from.


In my mind, one of the few powers still possessed by the people is the ability to vote on ballot propositions. I am confident that the people of California will, as a majority, uphold the worldwide time-honored, evolutionarily sound, liberally unpopular definition of marriage.

Ashley said...

Kevin, I still owe you a response. I haven't forgotten. But reading all this has proven to be enlightening (not in the way you might think) interesting, and very entertaining. I am curious to read what you have to say in response to Blogdor...

PS How do you have so much freaking time to comment and respond so often? Aren't you a teacher?

Anonymous said...

I read through some of these comments and you are a great debator. I don't to pick a fight with you, but I just wanted to clarify something you mentioned about the LDS church. I'm LDS and my family is LDS. You mentioned that each LDS church member must commit at least four hours a week and that this goes for Mormons in every single state. Well, we live in AZ where they have a similiar Prop as CA, and neither me or any of my family members have been asked, urged or forced to donate our money or time to assist with efforts in CA or AZ. I'm curious to know where you got your "facts" from.

This article sums up the reasons why I am voting YES on Prop 102 in AZ...
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-divine-institution-of-marriage

Kevin said...

Blogdor:

Firstly, I wouldn't call myself a moral relativist. Plus, I definitely agree that morals are not inherently religious. I used to champion religion as a source of morality before coming to realize that some of the most moral/ethical people I know are not pious. They live by respectable, respectful codes because it's the right thing to do, not because they are afraid of potential consequences.

Though I know your comparisons are intentionally degrading, I'll bite. The reason I, and probably many people, do not support NAMBLA is because one person in that partnership is not of an age or maturity to make that sort of decision. It is ridiculous to compare homosexuality between consenting adults to molestation or statutory rape.

Some things are inherently wrong, but I don't see homosexuality as one of them. When close to half of the population is declaring something is not wrong, how can you still argue that it is inherently wrong? NAMBLA and child pornography are overwhelmingly looked down upon (how many open supporters of these causes can you find?) but homosexual marriage is not -- how then can you classify them similarly?

If you believe that "marriage [is] an institution that transcends government," you're truly fighting the wrong fight. You should be voting no to keep additional regulations on marriage out of the law books. As I understand it, a better proposition for Prop 8 proponents would be to suggest that marriages be declared a religious act entirely, and to only allow the government to grant domestic partnerships. I'd be willing to vote in favor of that. But as long as the government grants marriages, it should not be in the business of discriminating.

Your comment about wishing to be African American while applying for dental school strikes me as ignorant, but let's not even start a whole new debate on affirmative action -- I'm not sure this particular thread is big enough to handle it.


Ashley,

Okay, I look forward to your response. Also, I am no longer a teacher, I currently work as a copywriter, but after seeing the public school system up close, I am still very much interested in educational reform. (For the record, my hopes for reform have nothing to with teaching or not teaching same-sex marriage whatsoever.)


Anonymous,

Thanks for commenting and correcting me, I do not intentionally try to spread misinformation.

Where did I get my "fact"? I have found dozens of blogs by LDS members who have posted that their church has asked them to work at least "4 hours a week" and these are people who live in different parts of the country. Here are just three examples:

http://ginawoodhouse.blogspot.com/2008/10/prop-8-broadcast.html
http://lorinandkellibrown.blogspot.com/2008/10/making-difference-with-proposition-8.html
http://gallupfamily.blogspot.com/2008/10/vote-yes-on-prop-8-marriage-is-gift.html

Even the article you linked for me to look at directly states: "On June 20, 2008, the First Presidency of the Church distributed a letter about “Preserving Traditional Marriage and Strengthening Families,” announcing the Church’s participation with the coalition. The letter, which was read in Latter-day Saints’ church services in California, asked that Church members “do all [they] can to support the proposed constitutional amendment.”"

I do believe that you were not asked at your particular church, however, and I thank you for sharing your own experience.

Anonymous said...

Kevin--- Better late than never. :)

1)You are undoubtedly right that I more sensitive to media that depicts religious people in a negative way. I am surprised to hear, though, that I missing out on so much positive exposure. Many studies have documented the anti-religious bias. Aside from that produced by and for religious parties, I don‘t see much coming out of Hollywood that is pro-traditional values. Which brings me to my other point about religious freedoms and whether the general population would come to their defense. You mentioned that a large majority of US citizens cite themselves as religious. I’m sure this is true. But the type of religion that would warrant concern about these issues, is probably not the type of religion that most affiliate themselves with. There is a big difference between my religion and, for example, the ‘Christianity’ of Obama, or the Unitarian’s. Their religious beliefs are much different and are not threatened by the current issues at hand.

In my hometown, there are a lot of intimidation tactics being used by the ‘no on prop 8’ crowd. One high school girl our family knows had a ‘yes on 8’ bumper sticker on her car. She was walking the halls one day when a fellow student came up, grabbed her by the neck, and pushed her up against a wall. He held her there while a long line of students came up—one by one—and yelled “DON’T HATE, NO ON 8!” in her face. Talk about love and tolerance. My parents have a similar bumper sticker on their cars. A car of young, blonde girls drove by them one day. After seeing the sticker, they stuck their heads out their windows, flipping them off, and yelling profanities until they were out of sight. Another mom with the same bumper sticker, was surrounded by high schooler's chanting 'Mormon Bigot, Mormon Bigot!" while keeping her car from pulling out of a grocery store parking lot. Statistically speaking, many of these people probably cite themselves as religious. In a world like this, who knows what that means. And these are the people, the majority, who will stand up for the more conservative religious citizens and their freedoms?

2)More on the education issue--When it comes to morality issues, all parties are eager for the fresh palate of a young mind. Like we discussed before, these minds are impressionable and willing. They aren't discerning enough to see intricacies of an issue, so they depend on those whose authority they trust.

My concern is not at all that teaching gay marriage as a normal thing in schools will somehow cause my or another child to 'become gay'. My concern is that if they are taught from a young age that it is normal/legal, and those who oppose such things are 'haters', then my child will be confused about what constitutes the moral Truth. If their teacher says gay marriage is about love and acceptance, and their mom says it isn't right before God, what are they to think? I have no problem with discourse or opposition among adults and those who can think for themselves. But children do not appreciate the intricacies of these issues and are swayed by generalities and peer-pressure. I want the chance to present my child with my side of the story first. It is what parenting is all about. Then I want my child to go out into the world, compare what he has learned at home with what he/she sees, and then decide what will stick. Kindergarteners can't do that. This is my problem with 'King and King'. Gay marriage is still a personal morality issue (unlike monarchy) and I feel I have the parental right to be the primary influence in these matters, whether or not you agree with my views. For those, like yourself, who are pro-privacy, you must be in favor of that.

I know, I know...home school! My patient's might protest if I gave up my profession for that. It isn't a practical option for most of us. Hence, the fight. We send our children to school to learn math, reading, science, etc., We want them to learn the basic skills that will take them to college and productive lives. We send them there for basic value lessons: not stealing, not lying, not cheating. We do not send them here for lessons on more subtle, controversial and changing elements of morality. We still view this as the parent's primary domain.

And if the pro-gay marriage movement weren't so aware of the fact that the only way to ultiately win this fight is to to get to the young minds, how do you explain movies like "it's elementary'? It isn't about education as much as persuasion. Surely we can all admit that.

Now those who wish I didn't even want to teach my children that homosexuality is not a lifestyle we want them to embrace in their personal lives, would be thrilled to hear that something made it harder for me to 'indoctrinate' my children this way. I believe that is part of their goal in bringing this to classrooms. They want to make it an uphill battle for us to convince our children that we are right. I refer back to my earlier point about age and when is the appropriate time to commence this battle.
There are lots of morality things that I want the right to teach my children, and I hope for as much support as I can get from my friends, family, and community. Among them are, abstinence before marriage, service to fellow-men, avoidance of drugs/alcohol, honesty, etc., Formal education can hurt or harm such efforts.

3)Re: the Civil Rights Issue: Marriage was designed to provide a stable institution in which to procreate. You are right in saying that we don’t force married couples to have children, and there are some who wish they could but cannot. As a society, we tend to now focus on the emotional aspects of marriage, but this is not the heart of the institution. The inherent biological possibility of a heterosexual couple is different than that of a homosexual couple. They are not the same. Marriage was not defined/designed to gratify the desires of two adults who love each other. Hence, I don’t see why it is offensive to call two things different that are in fact different. The civil rights at stake (thought not in CA where they are already protected for all couples) seem to be things like tax status, visitation rights, etc., I have no problem with rights for civil partnerships. But the label of marriage, which was designed to apply to a specific type of union with a specific type of capability, is not a right. Read the LA times opinion article (Sept. 19th) by D. Blankenhorn for a more thorough discussion of this.

Things like this keep life interesting, eh? :)
Katia

Anonymous said...

I just have a quick comment to make...
First I find this predominately healthy debate refreshing, it's nice to see that good, sane, healthy minded people can feel differently about an issue and debate that issue with grace.
Okay... now for why I'm typing in the first place.
I have an issue with the argument No for Prop 8 conveys... the commercials talk about equality, fairness, and such, as the reason to vote no, but I'm not convinced that's the real basis for this "marriage" push. If they really want equality, and fairness, why do we have different definitions for sexual orientation? Aren't we creating labels and separating people by calling one person heterosexual and another homosexual? If it's REALLY about equality, we shouldn't have those definitions at all, we should all just be (I don't know) say... "sexually active"... sound silly? Yeah... it does, because you know what... heterosexuals and homosexuals don't want to be grouped into the same category... EITHER of them.
So here's my thought... why is the gay community (and others) pushing for the right to be "married"? Because let's be frank... it really is ALL about the word... if it wasn't, the Gay community would just be pushing for their domestic partnerships to have the same rights as marriages and would leave the people that feel strongly about the current definition of "marriage" alone. They'd also be okay with heterosexual unions being named something "different" than homosexual unions... but they're not. They want that "word"... and here... is why I think that is. It's not about equality... it's about acceptance... they want to be accepted. They want the world to recognize that their lifestyle is okay, and that nobody has a problem with a man loving a man (or woman loving a woman). But the reason they don't slogan their commercials with lines like "gay couples should have the right to be married too, because it's an acceptable way of life", is because it just. would. not. fly. With some people sure, but I'd bet money that most people respond much better to "do the right thing" "be fair" "and everyone deserves to feel equal" (when lets be serious, it's not equal one way or the other... it's not all about the gay community always being the underdog... what about Gay Pride Parades? You better believe that if people tried to launch a Straight Pride Parade, it would be labelled as intolerant and they'd be called bigots), than the slogan from above. There are people out there (and a good portion I'd wager), that will NEVER accept homosexuality, just like some people will NEVER accept premarital sex, or just like some people will NEVER accept one man having multiple wives, or just like some people will NEVER drink alcohol because they thinks it's morally wrong (and to take that away from them, would be taking away their fundamental rights to think and feel the way they want to).
I think that it is the job of the gay community to prove why the population should take a "word" that has meant one thing for thousands of years (and has such a deep meaning for some), and redefine it... and frankly, I'm just not convinced.
Okay... so my "quick" comment turned into a novel... Sorry about that...

Blogdor said...

Kevin,

I don't recall directly naming you a moral relativist. What I'm implying is that moral relativism is permeating our society under the guise of tolerance.

At some point society decides something is inherently wrong. Hopefully we will never even come close to a tolerance or moral relativity line regarding NAMBLA or child porn. The use of those extreme examples was hyperbole, not comparable parallels. But the fact remains that there are people who feel NAMBLA and child porn addicts ARE morally justified. I was emphasizing the consequences of an ever-shifting, never-defined moral line in our country's laws. So to reiterate, I am not comparing NAMBLA, child porn, and homosexuality as equal moral issues, but rather as distant consequences of a society driven by moral relativism. You have further confirmed my point of this shift by stating the NAMBLA and child porn condone acts equal to molestation and statutory rape. But you don't equate homosexuality with sodomy, which said act has been historically and is still considered in many countries to be illegal. You're not a moral relativist, but moral relativity has permeated our society.

Regarding the inherent immoral nature of anything, you yourself have cited the Civil Rights Movement. There was a time in the not too distant past where a majority of the people viewed segregation and discrimination as morally RIGHT. So if, "Close to half of the population is declaring something is not wrong, how can you still argue that it is inherently wrong?" I return your question in the past tense. Was segregation and discrimination inherently wrong, even though a majority felt it was not? Whether or not the legalities and potetial consequences of Prop 8 are understood by the general populace, I assume the majority of the people that are voting for/against it are voting based solely on their views of homosexuality. So if it turns out Prop 8 passes, it is probably a fair assumption that, deep down, most proponents view homosexuality as inherently wrong. I don't have any citations for that, just a assumptions.

Voting yes or no wouldn't necessarily be adding regulations, it would be changing a definition. I don't disagree with you on your proposition on decoupling marriage from the government. I would have to think that one over a little while longer, but on the surface I would support that. Unfortunately that isn't the current debate. And to reiterate my previous points, were Prop 8 to pass, the government wouldn't be granting marriages discriminatorily. The definition of marriage as confirmed by the people would exculpate the government from discrimination.

The allusion to Affirmative Action was partly in jest. Affirmative Action has played a great role in elevating the American Minority. The major point being made is that the Homosexual Rights and Civil Rights Movements aren't comparable because agency infinitely differentiates the two. But no, let's not start an Affirmative Action debate. And I apologize if that comment offended anyone.

Kevin said...

Katia,

1) Traditional values are definitely being reinforced: between Juno, Knocked Up, and Jamie Lynn Spears, everyone is presented as keeping the baby. (I actually don’t have a problem with this, by the way.) I can’t recall the last time I saw a fictional character choose to have an abortion.

I agree that many who define themselves as religious “are not threatened by the current issues at hand,” but my point is that if religious freedoms in general are to be threatened, there is a firm majority of people that will stand up to combat that war. Many Prop 8 proponents seem to consider its potential rejection to be a gateway toward loss of religious freedom, and I don’t think that it’s fair to legislate on a preemptive matter, particularly when the ultimate feared outcome is highly unlikely.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “conservative religious freedoms.” What religious freedoms do they require that are not/cannot be applied to all religions? I might need some specific examples to get your point, there. My first thought is that you think your religious right is to legislate how other people live so that

Your anecdotes of Prop 8 opposition are upsetting and inappropriate. Again, I’d argue that there are people on both sides using tactics neither one of us would agree with. I will cop to understanding the frustration of Prop 8 opponents, though I don’t act out on it in hostile ways.

Here’s what I see happening: People who normally leave the religious right to lead their own lives as they choose feel provoked when they see one side actively attacking a current freedom allowed to other citizens. They perceive intolerance, and then act intolerantly back. Obviously, two wrongs don’t make a right, but I too get frustrated. If I am going to fight to uphold your right to believe what you believe and act how you act, I want to know that your side is not going to attempt to legislate these beliefs and force them upon other people.

2) I believe you when you describe your child growing up and making their own decision, but in this era, your child will be exposed to homosexual lifestyles in the media and perhaps your neighborhood far sooner than that. Being taught that something is legal doesn’t make it moral, and I think our history classes are good at demonstrating that.

In my classroom, almost uniformly my students were opposed to abortion, even the Bush-bashers. We discussed it, and acknowledged its legality, but I never had any kid that was taught at home that abortion was wrong change their opinion because the government permitted it.

Clearly I am outspoken on this issue in this forum, but as a high school teacher, I did not. Homosexuality did come up in my classroom, but never by me. Kids talk about these things, and it’s naïve to think otherwise. The most I ever did was preach tolerance and respect, which I will not apologize for. I did not stand for hate speech (“fag” etc)
I acknowledged that people felt different ways, and just asked that we learn to tolerate/respect one another. That’s a hard thing to teach sometimes, but I’d like to think you’d at least agree with that lesson.

I’m not familiar with “It’s Elementary” – what is that?

3) You ask why, if heterosexual and homosexual relationships are different, should we call them the same thing. To that I say that no two heterosexual marriages are alike either. Should we have a different name for marriages where heterosexuals do not intend/cannot procreate? Should we have a different name for interracial marriages? Should we have a different name for marriages between people whose ages differ by more than a decade? Should we have a different name for marriages that occurred in a courthouse rather than a church? Nothing will stop anyone from describing a certain marriage as a “gay marriage” or describing that type of marriage as they see fit.

Thanks again for adding to the discourse, Katia.


Anonymous,

Thanks. I too am mostly pleased with the direction this discussion has taken.

You bring up a good new point to this discussion. My personal politics lead me to feel that there shouldn’t be different definitions for sexual orientation. I personally think that sexuality is fluid, and it is silly to rigidly put someone in a specific category. People are people. That is perhaps the main reason why I don’t want a Constitutional amendment referencing the biological sex of people, as that sets certain gender roles into law. To my knowledge, there is no other Constitutional language that specifies gender, and I’d prefer to keep that off the books.

That said, I’m sure there are many homosexuals who don’t want to be classified in the same category as heterosexuals, so I get your point.

Yes, I think a lot of this is about acceptance, or at least tolerance. Many people fighting against Prop 8 have no desire to get married, but don’t want to have their own or friends’ lives limited.

You think “it is the job of the gay community to prove” why Prop 8 should be rejected, but I don’t understand why. They should just be people who have rights and freedoms like the rest of us. I don’t need a single gay person to convince me of this, I just know that I’d feel the same way to protect the rights of any marginalized group. Besides, if the gay community were to give power point presentations on what their marriages would be like, I’m sure voters would be afraid of some larger unknown “agenda.”


Blogdor,

Why should I equate homosexuality with sodomy? Who does sodomy hurt? (Let’s avoid the obvious punch line.) I know married heterosexual couples that engage in sodomy. What consenting adults do in privacy is not something I’m interested in legislating.

I take your point about inherent wrongness and morality and think we agree there. My original point was that you can’t compare the morality of homosexuality and child pornography, but since you have said those were not meant as direct comparisons, I think we’re fine here.

Okay, you’re right, the current debate is Prop 8. But shouldn’t you, as someone who cares about the religious implications of the word marriage more than anything, try to stop the government from defining in it any fashion so that the church can maintain control. Defining it one way now sets precedence for more changes that might not align with your feelings next time.

There is still potential for debate and discrimination by setting the “man and woman” restriction to marriage. What defines a man and a woman? What about hermaphrodites? What about people who undergo gender reassignment surgery?

Blogdor said...

Kevin,

Sodomy only because it represents the historic criminal title for anal intercourse (with homosexuality being the historic general assumption) just as molestation and statutory rape represent the currently accepted criminal titles for the other moral and civil violations cited. But you are right in that no one here is interested in legislating what two consenting adults do privately. The point of the parallel was that in the past, sodomy was a crime, just as molestation and statutory are now. However over time, sodomy was dropped and substituted with homosexual intercourse, and now is widely considered as a normal form of intercourse. My argument is that moral relativity tugs on society and will continue to do so. Things that at one time are nearly unanimously illegal and immoral (child porn and statutory rape) seem to become more and more acceptable (sodomy).

Until (if ever) the government being relieved of granting marriages becomes an issue, I'll continue to support what I feel is the appropriate structure for the institution of mariage.

You bring up a great point regarding transgender, nongender and multigender issues. There is such a small minority of people that actually fall into this category that a state or federal constitution realistically can't address them. A possible solution would be to deal with those events on a case by case basis, and then use precedent to establish efficiency. It is simply impossible for any constitution to protect every minority, every exception. But it certainly is an interesting twist.

shannon davis said...

I appreciate the civility you have demonstrated in discussing this subject, I wish it were this way more often.

I want to start by addressing the issue you raised in point #4: the contention that a strict adherence to the constitutional separation of church and state necessarily leads one to vote against Prop 8. I am confused at how you arrive at this determination and I would like to discuss your interpretation of the Establishment Clause as it relates to your conclusion.

The First Amendment to the US Constitution says the following regarding the relationship between the state and religion:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

That's it. Of course, the real world application of this one sentence (i.e. The Establishment Clause; "EC") has been the subject of nearly endless litigation, the result of which has been that the Supreme Court has had to set forth some basic parameters regarding when the EC is violated and when it's not. In short, the Court has defined the EC to mean that the government may not (1) establish a national religion or prefer or promote one religion over another, or (2) excessively entangle itself with any one religion. Thus, to make the claim that a Constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman violates the EC, you would have to argue that such a law somehow fits into one of these two categories. The truth, of course, is that it doesn't. If it did, in fact, even if there were a remotely colorable argument that it did, it would have been raised in the numerous lawsuits brought on the GLBT's behalf on this issue, but it wasn't. Accordingly, if the Amendment proposed in Prop 8 is not subject to a challenge based on the EC, why can't I as a voter be guided in how I vote based on my own cultural, moral or religious convictions?

There is no prohibition against voting for certain candidates or for certain laws based on one's religious affiliation or personal code of morality. The only prohibition is that such laws do not have the effect of establishing a national religion, promoting one religion over another or excessively entangling government with a particular religion. So long as the law doesn't have any of these effects, why I vote for it is completely and totally up to me. Thus, because Prop 8 does not violate the EC, the fact that voters may draw upon their religious convictions in supporting the proposition likewise does not violate the EC. You may believe that such motivations are ignorant and unenlightened, but they are constitutionally protected and in no way violate even the most expansice interpretation of the EC. Thus, the church/state argument as it relates to Prop 8 is a dead letter.

Finally, I find it remarkable that the GLBT community and their supporters have managed to shift the burden of persuasion on how marriage should be defined. The question has moved from why gays should be allowed to marry, to why they should not. For many practical reasons, this shift is a very big deal and pretty amazing really. Here we have a group that, for the first time in civilized history, is attempting to change the way society should define its most fundamental building block to include couples of the same sex, and somehow, the burden has fallen to those who are opposed to such a radical change to come up with an "acceptable reason" why not. Of course the trouble is that in the absence of some kind of undergirding morality, there is no reason why not. So, naturally, it is our morality that gets criticized as being outdated, labled as hateful, and dismissed as being dogmatic. But what I find interesting is that the very framers of the Constitution recognized that in the absence of a communal morality rooted in religion, their short document, by itself, would be insufficient to properly govern a nation. In fact, it was our second President who said:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --John Adams, October 11, 1798

In the end, I suppose the only thing left to say is that there are still many of us who feel the same way.

Anonymous said...

You've got quite the discussion going on here. :)

I'm quoting you responding to another's comment here:

"Your last point sums up our schism. In the end, it is your religion that causes you to decide that homosexuality is wrong. The best I can do to attempt to sway you is yet again remind you that there is a distinction between church and state, and perhaps you can see the value governmentally in voting accordingly."

You are right that there is a distinction between church and state. What you might not understand is that the original intent of "separation of church and state" was to keep the Government out of church, not to keep religion out of the public square. Most people nowadays seem to have that backwards. "Separation of church and state" is not in our Constitution. It is a phrase that comes from a letter Jefferson wrote to the Dansbury Baptists.

Our country was founded by those who believed in a Creator. If you go back and read the writings of many of our Founding Fathers and many Presidents thereafter, you will see that there was a dependence upon God for the blessings this country has been given. Our freedom and liberty comes from the Creator, because He has created us equal. However, liberty doesn't mean we are free to do WHATEVER. There is still a moral standard to uphold. If we were free to do WHATEVER we wanted, then murder, stealing, etc., etc., wouldn't be considered a crime.

The point is that liberty and freedom doesn't mean that anything goes. And our country was founded on those who did believe in God, those who depended on God.

The intent of "Separation of church and state" was to keep the Government from ruling over what churches believed and did (like King James did in England). It was not to keep God out of the public square.

And yet, nowadays, if I stand up for my faith, I am called such things as "hateful" and "closed-minded."

Prop 8 defines marriage as it was intended to be and as it has been for centuries. If people want to be in gay relationships, why don't they call it something else? Why do they have to destroy marriage?

Anonymous said...

You've got quite the discussion going on here. :)

I'm quoting you responding to another's comment here:

"Your last point sums up our schism. In the end, it is your religion that causes you to decide that homosexuality is wrong. The best I can do to attempt to sway you is yet again remind you that there is a distinction between church and state, and perhaps you can see the value governmentally in voting accordingly."

You are right that there is a distinction between church and state. What you might not understand is that the original intent of "separation of church and state" was to keep the Government out of church, not to keep religion out of the public square. Most people nowadays seem to have that backwards. "Separation of church and state" is not in our Constitution. It is a phrase that comes from a letter Jefferson wrote to the Dansbury Baptists.

Our country was founded by those who believed in a Creator. If you go back and read the writings of many of our Founding Fathers and many Presidents thereafter, you will see that there was a dependence upon God for the blessings this country has been given. Our freedom and liberty comes from the Creator, because He has created us equal. However, liberty doesn't mean we are free to do WHATEVER. There is still a moral standard to uphold. If we were free to do WHATEVER we wanted, then murder, stealing, etc., etc., wouldn't be considered a crime.

The point is that liberty and freedom doesn't mean that anything goes. And our country was founded on those who did believe in God, those who depended on God.

The intent of "Separation of church and state" was to keep the Government from ruling over what churches believed and did (like King James did in England). It was not to keep God out of the public square.

And yet, nowadays, if I stand up for my faith, I am called such things as "hateful" and "closed-minded."

Prop 8 defines marriage as it was intended to be and as it has been for centuries. If people want to be in gay relationships, why don't they call it something else? Why do they have to destroy marriage?

Kevin said...

Shannon,

First I want to say I almost entirely agree with your last post. I think I didn't articulate myself well enough for you to respond with these points with which I pretty much agree.

I don't think the separation of church and state is what makes Prop 8 unconstitutional, it's the part that it is not treating its citizens equally. Again, I think that's on the basis of gender even more than sexuality. Limiting the confines of marriage to being between certain sexes when our country seeks to not discriminate on the basis of sex is what I find to be unconstitutional.

And I would agree that the reason the separation between church and state was originated was more so to protect religious rights. But to truly keep these entities separate and protect both, we need to maintain that distinction. If people are to intertwine their faith and their government, that is, in the long-term, not going to protect freedom of religion, as the government will impose ideas that contradict with religion. That, or our government will become very much about Christianity, which does scare me. Maybe I should start screaming about the Christian agenda and how its followers are looking to take over my schools.

You most certainly can make your voting decision based on religious convictions. I imagine it'd be difficult to separate that from the decision making process. The point I was trying to convey was that while I can probably not debate you away from your faith, I could perhaps get you to concede that the separation of church and state is important and to make your decisions in that manner rather than a faith-based one. (Don't fret, I'm not holding my breath.)

I may not be religious, but I feel I am one of the moral people to whom John Adams refers. My morality encourages me to not discriminate against people.

Perhaps we are now at a stalemate at this one. Thanks for the discussion, you've certainly enlightened me. I can only respect a viewpoint as thorough as yours.


~Lisa:

I addressed the church and state misconception in my comment to Shannon above, so I agree with most of what you are saying there, though I agree that the way I stated it did not accurately express that.

What makes murder and stealing wrong is that these actions that have victims. Homosexuality between consenting adults does not have victims.

I think the reason some people become agitated with the faithful these days is that they use it to impose on other people's lifestyles. If you're going to say one lifestyle is wrong, other people are going to get riled up and point the finger the other way, too. For us to coexist, we need to live and let live and not impose our decisions on other people.

I still find it absurd to think that homosexuals would "destroy" marriage. If that's the case, it must not have been that strong and sound to begin with.

Thanks, Lisa.

Ashley said...

I open with a question regarding your claim that Constitution defers to minorities: Are you seriously prepared to argue that the founders of the Constitution intended to protect minorities when they wrote it? The same white, wealthy landowners who wrote slaves, women and everyone unlike them out of the umbrella of blessings they sought to grant? It wasn’t until all of the founding fathers were dead that the country even considered the idea of minorities being entitled to the same rights as everyone else.
You requested a Constitutional citation for my loose claim that "the rights of individuals and minorities end where they begin to infringe upon the rights of the majority." Schenk vs. United States was the original inspiration for that comment, as I recalled from my Political Science courses. Note: the overall premise of this case has largely been discredited. I bring up a specific comment from the case only as a contextual reference, not to substantiate my claim. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote the opinion for the case, making this hallmark claim:
"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent."
Since the Prop 8 debate revolves largely around weighty issues pertaining to the first amendment that is where I will turn to substantiate my claim:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Now, here is where the two relate. Holmes' statement, while no longer the basis for sound restriction of first amendment freedoms, highlights a common misinterpretation about our most controversial bill of right. And that is that it does not in fact grant anything, but rather prohibits Congress from encroaching on liberties that already fundamentally exist. Ultimately and inevitably, our so called inalienable rights come into conflict with one another in ways that neither the Constitution nor hundreds of Supreme Court cases can viably or consistently answer. When this happens, as in the current clash over Prop 8, it is not the government's job to guarantee rights to any group, as opponents of Prop 8 erroneously assert. It is the job of government to prevent infringement upon rights as little as possible.
As there is no tangible difference in the State Constitution of California between a civil union and a homosexual marriage, the defining of marriage between only man and woman would do nothing to take rights away from homosexuals; however, it does everything to protect churches and parents from having their rights infringed upon…If Prop 8 does not pass, the rights of churches and individuals to maintain a moral stance against homosexuality is threatened. So, I hate to be the bad guy here and assert that the Constitution just can't provide rights to everyone, but I'm sorry. That is not its job. In this case, where two groups conflict with one another, the Constitutional test of encroaching as little as possible should default to the majority because the minority’s rights are not affected. That is what I meant when I said that the rights of minorities and individuals end where the rights of the majority are infringed: since the Constitution cannot grant individuals’ rights, the most imperative role of the first amendment is to encroach on the rights of as few people as possible.
Passing Prop 8 does not encroach on anyone’s rights because the right for homosexuals to marry has never existed in the first place, and they have all the same rights as a married couple in a domestic partnership anyway. If it doesn’t pass, the fact that the ACLU exists all but guarantees that churches and individuals wanting to maintain a moral stance against homosexuality will have their rights challenged by the government. It would take one teeny tiny little massive lawsuit going to the federal Supreme Court to eradicate the so-called religious protection granted by the California Supreme Court. If you don’t believe the ACLU has plans for that very thing, read here:http://benjihadafieldandhelostit.blogspot.com/2008/10/proposition-8-why-im-voting-yes.html for a long list of court cases where such has already occurred around the country. It was done by NPR.
It has been suggested that, “ideally, we should grant the equality to same-sex couples now, and then, if circumstances necessitate, similarly fight for groups, religious and otherwise, who have their own rights challenged…” Right. I feel really great about that with the ACLU at the helm. I am about as confident that they will fight against homosexuals to protect religious and parental freedoms as I am that John McCain will be our next president.
The real problem between these two factions is that of criterion. When I was on the debate team in high school, every case I argued began with a criterion value. People don’t understand much less begin to agree, until they at least start from the same basic premise. Even within our own ranks we are arguing from different vantage points and that has been the real stimulus for contention. I guess that some of us are operating from the same value stance of rights, but ultimately it comes back to moral paradigms. And too few of us are operating from the same one: we each think that protecting the rights of our own group is more morally sound or important, which ultimately proves my point that the Constitution simply cannot, nor should it try, to give rights to a group which threatens the rights of another.
I can make plenty of good arguments as to why Prop 8 should pass on legal and logical grounds. Frankly, after I have spent so much time reading and researching those reasons, I actually think the very best one, and most simple, is that 47 out of 50 states agree that homosexual marriage should not be allowed, as do both of our presidential candidates. But that doesn’t help convince any of the 10% of undecided people who will ultimately make this decision. I hope that you fence sitters have done your research. Hopefully you will conclude that giving rights of marriage to homosexuals is not only not the responsibility of the Constitution, but the implications thereof are far too threatening to the rights of parents and churches for the Constitution to feasibly protect.

Kevin said...

Ashley, you've got a lot of well argued points here,

Touche on the country's founders protecting the rights of minorities. Their words implied that they cared about freedom for everyone, but their actions certainly contradicted this sentiment.

Yet isn't it through wisdom that we have come to realize not to oppress the groups our ancestors did? That when we say "liberty and justice for all" we really mean for all?

Thanks for coming back with a specific case. I'd argue that it is easier to prove that crying "fire" in a theater is a "clear and present danger" -- how are you going to make that same argument for same-sex marriage? Whose lives does that threaten?

I agree with your claim that the government should infringe upon rights as little as possible. What I fail to see is how a Constitutional amendment to limit the rights of certain individuals fulfills this claim.

I'll grant you that the differences between marriage and civil unions in California are minute (though that is not true in other states), but it still brings up the idea of "separate but equal" where we make distinctions between our citizens. Notions of "separate but equal" have consistently been shot down as wrong by our courts.

Just because a "right" hasn't been granted in the past doesn't make it not a right. We are slow to pick up on these things sometimes, unfortunately.

Okay, we finally have an admission that Prop 8 is a preemptive strike of sorts, an attempt to prevent churches from being legislated. Okay, I see that perspective, and can even see the concern. But on what level is it right to deprive other people of personal freedoms in the quest to preserve your own? My personal ethics would never allow me to do that: I think it's important to do the right thing each step of the way. I think one of the problems that the religious right will encounter in the long-term, though, is that actions like this will alienate people from wanting to reciprocally protect religious freedoms.

Actually, both Obama and Biden feel that the government shouldn't be in the business of defining marriage. In fact, they are publicly opposed to Prop 8.

You argue that "giving rights of marriage to homosexuals is not... the responsibility of the Constitution." Yet you are voting in favor of a Constitutional amendment to do just the opposite. If you think it is not the responsibility, you should be voting no, and leaving the Constitution out of this debate.

I call bull on Prop 8 protecting parents and churches. Many gay people are parents and many attend church. They may not be welcome in your particular family or affiliation, but it's not for you to decide on a macro level.

Anonymous said...

Hello everyone,
I have enjoyed reading this debate, and I have a question. What is the difference between a "marriage" and a "domestic partnership"? Is there any? If so, what?
-Molly

Ashley said...

Kevin-
Let the record show that I love the Bleeker costume. Good call.

Since you didn't bring up any new arguments and basically defaulted to a straw man response, I'm not going to spend a lot of time responding.

I'm NOT going to argue the clear and present danger argument for my position; I stated that I only brought that case up for contextual reference. I made my argument that majority rights trump minority rights, when the two threaten each other's rights, based on the first amendment.

We fundamentally disagree about rights: you ask again how my argument pertains to the restriction of homosexual rights. It doesn't. Homosexuals don't have the right to marry because 1-what they want to call marriage is fundamentally different from marriage and thus should not be equated with such 2-The Constitution has no obligation to "give" a right that does not exist, only to prevent government from infringing on existing rights.
Furthermore, a civil union does for homosexuals what the Constitution cannot.

Anyway, we have been through all of this time and time again. The biggest problem is that you see this as a deprivation of rights for one group that you value, which I do not recognize, and vice versa. We simply have different priorities. I see absolutely zero merit in your argument that Prop 8 supporters want to "deprive people of rights." By your own admission, there is very little difference between marriage and civil unions, semantics really.

My personal ethics also encourage me to do the right thing every step of the way...we just disagree about what that right thing is. Sad, and scary, I know. Frustrating too.

Since you have never acknowledged or rebutted my claim about the ACLU, I'll assume you don't disagree, thus further validating my concern for churches. And you are late to the game if you think the waning support for churches in the courts has not already begun.

If you want to contend that Obama supports gay marriage, then he is a flip flopper:
Although Barack Obama has said that he supports civil unions, he is against gay marriage. In an interview with the Chicago Daily Tribune, Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/BarackObama.htm

But thank you for acknowledging my good arguments...I am growing so tired and resentful of the attitude that people who want to vote yes MUST be bigoted, prejudice and narrow minded and will one day be ashamed, once we "come to the light" for wanting to maintain some semblance of control over the moral relativity that has seeped into every facet of our existence. You're right. It's not for me to decide on a macro level. It is the people's right, which I still contend is the strongest argument. I realize that leaves me vulnerable...if the people vote against it on Tuesday, I will have to line up or move out (which I intend to do anyway.)

And anyone is welcome in my family-gay or straight. Even you Kevin. We'd love to have you over for dinner.

Anonymous said...

Well, it’s Election Day. One way or another, there will be some closure to a part of this battle in the coming days. ☺

Most of my thoughts on the civil rights issue, etc., have been brought up in the comments above, but there are a few points from your last reply to my post that I wanted to address.

1) I thought it was rather hilarious that you brought up Juno, Knocked Up and Jamie Lynn Spears as examples of traditional values being reinforced. All three examples are of women who are having pre-marital sex and got pregnant out of wedlock! I would venture to say that sixteen year old’s getting pregnant out of wedlock, is not what most of us are talking about when we say traditional values.
Unless choosing to keep the baby is your only criteria for traditional values, these aren’t great examples. Great movies, but not great examples.


2)We are at a standstill re: whether religious freedoms are likely to be lost. You think this is unlikely. I don’t. It is already happening. But let me better explain what I mean by the loss of religious freedom. I mean that people are free to exercise their religious views in their personal sphere: Here are a few examples, of varying scale.
a)the right of a parent to choose whether homosexual marriage is taught to their child at school
b)the right of a religious organization to say that they will only marry heterosexual couples
c)the right of a preacher to teach that homosexuality is wrong
d)the right of a private religious college to have married housing that is only for heterosexual couples
e)the right of a religious adoption agency to choose whether they will place babies with homosexual couples or not
f)the right of a church to remain a tax-exempt non-profit organization


I’d like to point out that law suits have already been directed at a few of the above examples, and the adoption agency closed down, the religious college had to change its rules, and the teacher flouted the parents’ right to choose on this issue.

The reason I referred to these as ‘conservative religious freedoms’ is that only certain religions, more conservative ones, would suffer in the above examples. They certainly apply to all religions, but some religions have such loose moral tenets, that they just wouldn’t care. It is the churches who take the firmest stand against moral relativism who have the most to lose.


3)You say that I shouldn’t legislate how others can live. I find this humorous. All laws are about dictating what is an acceptable way to live and how much our lives are allowed to infringe on other’s lives. If you legalize gay marriage, then gay married couples become a protected legal class. You cannot ‘discriminate’ against a protected class. I put ‘discriminate’ in quotes because we clearly disagree about what this means. All of a sudden, I can be told what I can and cannot do (as in my above examples) because this is ‘discrimination.’ So how do you argue that your legislation doesn’t change the way that I can live? Currently, my vote on prop 8 would not change the way others can live. Homosexual couples can still stand up before friends and family, and declare their love. They can have a preacher perform this ceremony. They can currently have/adopt children. They can wear wedding rings. They can call themselves wives/husbands if they want. They have tax rights/visitation rights. Nothing in Prop 8 changes this. You are all up in arms that I, as a religious person, am trying to force my beliefs onto someone else. How am I legislating how they are living when I am changing nothing about how they are living? I am only legislating how the government defines their union.

This article is excellent in its discussion of religious rights. I’d be curious to know what you think:
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/viewarticle.php?selectedarticle=2008.10.31_Gallagher_Maggie_Marriage%20Matters:%20For%20Kids,%20for%20Parents,%20and%20for%20Religious%20Liberty_.xml


4)You are right that teaching whether something is legal doesn’t mean that we are teaching something is right. But to young, unsophisticated minds, it probably does. It is an interesting example you bring up about abortion in your classroom. However, you are talking about high-schoolers. I am concerned about a younger age group. I refer back to my earlier post on the battle for young minds. The movie “It’s Elementary” was put together by gay activists. It is about the effectiveness of teaching elementary school age kids about gay marriage in terms of getting them to embrace it—not just tolerate it. You can find it on youtube. I certainly hope that a high-schooler is not so easily swayed. And you are right that our children will have plenty of exposure to the gay lifestyle, etc., But this is about marriage, not respect for the gay lifestyle (which I think are two different things.)

5)You asked if we should try to name all the nuanced forms of heterosexual marriage. Interesting argument, but, obviously the answer is no. The current definition of marriage is rooted in biological, historical, and social places. Our point is not to make them all the same, but to protect the heart of this institution. Besides, the reason no one bothers to define those other marriages as different, is that there are not the same implications in doing so. Each of those types of marriage still falls under the original definition. This fight is about whether to change that definition.

6)You said, “I acknowledged that people felt different ways, and just asked that we learn to tolerate/respect one another.” Of course I agree with you here. I think what has been lost in this debate is that we on the ‘yes on 8’ side, do respect homosexuals. We are not seeking to take away civil rights/partnerships. We are not attempting to stop their ability to adopt children. We are trying to stop the re-definition of marriage. It occurred to me that perhaps this is why we disagree on the issue of whether or not this is a civil right. The ‘yes on 8’ side defines marriage as it has been for centuries: a protected institution between a man and a woman to provide the best environment for procreation and child-rearing. Or, as the article I cited puts it, “When a baby is born, there is bound to be a mother somewhere close by. If we want fathers to be there both for their children and the mothers of their children, biology alone will not take us very far. Clearly we need a cultural mechanism for connecting fathers to the mother-child bond, and for communicating to the next generation of young people in the throes of erotic and romantic dramas that they have a serious obligation to act in ways that will protect the children their bodies make together.” This has been the point of marriage. If you define it this way, it’s hard to argue that gay marriage is a civil right. However, the ‘no on 8’ crowd is arguing based upon an already changed definition of marriage. If you define marriage as “the civil sanction of adult affection”, then it’s harder to argue that it isn’t a civil right. Fundamentally, we can’t seem to agree on the definition of marriage. When ‘Prop 8’ first came on the scene, it was broadly referred to as the proposition to redefine marriage. The ‘yes on 8’ crowd was twenty points ahead in the polls. Then it got re-cast as ‘Denying rights to gays’ and suddenly support plummets. Very cunning of the ‘no on 8’ crowd to hijack the definition of marriage and never address that they changed it. Because we feel that they did, of course we feel that they have the burden of proof.

We have already touched on polygamy here, but I find deep irony in the fact that the gay activists are paving the way for polygamy to be legalized. As I believe you have conceded, there is no logical argument against it once you have redefined marriage. Can you suddenly say, ‘Wait..we meant only between two people?” Nope. You are prepared to accept that, but I know many people who are voting ‘no on 8’ who still have an instinctual feeling that polygamy is ‘wrong.’ So interesting, how the world turns. ☺

What I know is this: I have gay friends and colleagues. I respect them. I have never taken down a sign from anyone’s yard. I have never yelled at, intimidated or come out in violence towards any member of my community. I have cared for patient’s of all sexual preferences without ever judging them. I am not a bigot. You have shied away from characterizing either side of this fight, but I have seen much evidence that the one’s calling the most names are often living up to their insults.

A parting thought: I hope that if prop 8 doesn’t pass, we can re-visit this issue together in one year, two years, or beyond. It will be interesting to discuss if the threats to religious freedoms have indeed come to pass and what the fallout has been.
Thanks again for the interesting discussion.

-Katia

Michael Ejercito said...

Huh? In essence, the court is saying that same sex marriage is okay because our culture has changed to now accept it as a "healthy family relationship" but because our culture has not yet gotten behind the polygamous movement, it is not yet an accepted "healthy family relationship" and should therefore continue to be prohibited. So what is the court really saying? Changing culture is what led the court to its decision to allow same sex marriage.
Indeed, this demonstrates the complete dishonesty ofg this decision.

If minority rights depended on cultural attitudes, then we effectively have minority rights being subject to a majority vote. I was always under the impression that the purpose of constitutional protections was to protect unpopular minorities despite cultural attitudes.